What follows is the list of original comments hidden or deleted by Yasir Qadhi on his post here
Leaving Islam brings up questions we do not have an answer to, yes, indeed it does, but being agnostic is the most authentic and honest position we can take. This means we admit that we really don’t know, and we may never know the answer to everything we can imagine. Life is not the false dichotomy that you make it to be, between belief and disbelief, between a meaningful existence with god, and a meaningless one without god. There are many other positions one can take, including to believe in god but no inspired religion. To believe that we can create our own meaning.
Einstein said this best in his letter he wrote. In one he writes, “I’m not an atheist, and I don’t think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn’t know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see the universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws but only dimly understand these laws. Our limited minds grasp the mysterious force that moves the constellations.”
In another to Eric Gutking he wrote, “The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this.”
He did not call himself an atheist but did not believe in a personal god, i.e. a god who sent revelations to man. He wished to remain humble to the possibility, yet he was just as amazed by the wonder of the universe. So surely you can see you’ve made you’ve committed the fallacy of the undistributed middle. You’ve made a false dichotomy that doesn’t exist. You’ve strawmanned our position as atheists.
Yasir Qadhi, as a thought experiment, if you found out God did not exist, would you stop loving your daughter? Would you stop kissing your wife? Would you stop enjoying chai with a cookie dipped in it? Would you say “okay, no god, I will just stop getting out of bed now?” Or would you still be driven by the passion for knowledge that you are known by? Would you be driven to keep learning, to keep improving yourself, to improve our lot that us humans are born into? Because that is what drives many of us, god or no god, to build the world, to make it a better place, to improve it for those who are lesser off and to stand up against inequality and injustice wherever we see it.
There are spiritual practices that one can involve oneself in such as mindfulness meditation that are not predicated on any false dogma. For those who have lost God but are seeking spirituality meditation has it is proven meditation improves people’s wellbeing and health.
As for exmuslims being the most traumatized individuals you have met, this is also true for ex-mormons and ex-cult members. Realize that Islam puts high expectations and affects just about everything in an individuals life. During the process of leaving a religion, one may suffer from losing all their points of reference – friends, losing their parents acceptance and love, family members rejecting them or shunning them, or even boycotting them for their new religious positions. This can be extremely painful, especially if you were Muslim your whole life and everyone around you is intolerant of your newly found positions. Or if you have to hide your true beliefs for fear of being ostracized and condemned by others, much as you are doing here. When the Muslim community becomes more tolerant, once dissent becomes normalized, this will change.
There’s a reason for your doubts. Because Islam does not jive with reality. It is much more parsimonious to believe there is no God, or at least no God that is involved with humanity. What we see in the world is that God does not seem to answer duas. Dua is answered at the same probability as chance. We see that there is no good answer to the problem of suffering. We see that animals and humans do not seem designed rather they seem evolved. You find the most strange and disturbing things in nature from baby seals who are raped by larger males to bedbugs who have to pierce the abdomens of their female counterparts to insemininate them.
The Quran itself is the biggest proof that there is no god that sent revelation, because if there was a god, it would have been the god of Islam. Yet the Quran suffers from immense flaws in its description of the world, from holding up the sky without pillars, to incorrect descriptions of embryology, to insinuations of a geocentric universe, to describing magic and evil eye as real.
If God exists, why did he suddenly go silent? Why did he go dark in the era of technology and writing, yet he was intimately involved with humanity in the era of supersitition. Why is it that he is now silent, now hidden, now completely uninvolved?
I really had a better impression of you, and the best hopes for you, that you will one day realize that Islam is indeed false, and that you can regardless enjoy life the way it’s meant to be enjoyed. Not as a prison, but as a free man.
In conclusion, Yasir Qadhi I sincerely wish you the best. I urge you to continue gaining knowledge and studying. I am confident you will see your way through Islam.
Yasir Qadhi seeing such a frustrating and derogatory post from you was unexpected.
How do you know that everything that is illogical or not being able to be explained by logic becomes Supra rational. How do you distinguish between illogical and irrational from Supra rational. This seems like an unfounded assertion. And a really bad one.
There are many ideas in Islam that are irrational. For example the idea of eternal torture in the afterlife. The concept of slavery or the harsh punishments. The dillema of worshipping an Omnipotent God who doesn’t need worship. The whole concept of blind belief in gand claims without any evidence at all.
What ideas are Supra rational? Is the belief that shooting stars are missiles thrown at jins by angels for eavesdropping on heavenly conversations a Supra rational belief? Or is the belief that Muhammad rode a beast to heaven to meet God just like a multitude of similar stories from other religions also Supra rational? Or is the hatred towards homosexual people and them being executed a Supra rational idea too?
You seem to generalize all murtads under the same brush. You don’t tackle the arguments rather attack their person and commit the ad hominem fallacy. Many arguments I myself have established have nothing to do with the previous paragraph. They are derived from studying the seerah of Muhammad and reading the Quran from a critical angle. The idea that is the Quran perfectly preserved. How can we trust the idea of Hadith and not question bukhari when you find such incidents in the book. https://sunnah.com/bukhari/63/75
One can also question the Qurans grand and miraculous claims and why we see no evidence of them. Perhaps there are many philosophical issues with burden of proof or the Russel’s teapot. What infinite wisdom is behind God torturing us pesky little indefensible humans for finite crimes with infinite torture. Or why is life a test when God is omniscienct or that how can a God be all loving and merciful yet come across as megalomaniac that wants to be worshipped and loved and if you don’t give him what he wants he will torture you. The problem of evil is another issue.
No life isn’t the most depressing without God. Instead it can be very liberating. It can be much more fun. You don’t have to worry about someone constantly watching you. Plugging God in to satisfy your desire to exist after your death doesn’t make the idea of God true nor give any real meaning to life. What is the Qurans view on life’s purpose? To worship an omnipotent God so he doesn’t torture you? That’s really naive and shallow.
Proof for God is screaming at them? Which God? The deistic God it the God of personal Theism? Or Allah amongst the thousands of other God’s in human history. An invisible being that allegedly exists on a throne outside space time?
Our subjective concious experience can be made better or worse and we can give purpose and meaning to our own lives, for example reducing unncessaru suffering for other sentient beings.
It’s really sad you say deaf dumb and blind. But why did you stop there? Please tell us about Allah’s other insults towards disbelievers too that they are najs, like cattle, worse creation ever, worse than animals, like dogs donkeys etc.
What is ironic after pumping the Supra rational and calling murtdaeen as emotionally and physcologicaly motivated you use an example of an individual suffering emotional and phsycological trauma of losing a parent as a rational and intellectual point for returning to Islam. It’s unbelievable to see the hypocrisy at display here.
To enjoy the blessings of the next life? Why should I accept that an invisible afterlife exists with a heaven and hell that we have no evidence for? Or that thousands of religions have made the same claim? Not too mention the philosophical implications that can arise from such absurd beliefs. You know the elves also go to Valanor or middle Earth after they die.
Would have expected something better from a scholar like yourself. Please remember that Islam isn’t special and suffers from the same fundamental errors other religions do. People can and do leave it for intellectual reasons. The “arguments” you presented to defend your faith have been and are used by other religions to defend them.
“To preach Islam is utterly irrational.
Yet, this is routinely what Muslims end up doing, becoming some of the most psychologically traumatized individuals you will ever meet. Every aspect of their lives revolves around attempting to prove Islam, or wishing to achieve fame by constantly announcing to the world their faith. And if you examine their arguments, they all revolve around accepting a faith because their puny minds and infinitesimally diminutive rationales believe in the irrationality that is God. Yet, by accepting God, they end up, firstly, creating a myriad of far greater problems for which they genuinely have no real answer; and, secondly, they must struggle to find morality in their otherwise strictly orthodox and inconsequential lives (for life obsessing about God and a 1,400 year old book is the most depressing philosophical reality).
For the first, they must overcompensate by aggrandizing their own pseudo-intelligence, always trumpeting the imagined victory of their Islam over what they themselves have deemed irrational beliefs. In reality, all they have done is parrot the apologetics of mostly evangelical Christians like William Lane Craig and Sheikh Zindani and Harun Yahya’s “Science and Islam” that they must now blindly believe as beleivers.
And for the second, they must convince themselves of finding meaning and beauty in otherwise transient and semi-futile aspects and joyous endeavors of Islam, not realizing that even in their search for ‘the truth in Islam’, and in their appreciation of these hedonistic “Heaven”, proof against any God is screaming at them from all direction and angles. Why even desire heaven, and how to even appreciate this future lifestyle, if you cannot find joy in the dunya today?
Deaf, dumb and blind, these Muslim will not leave, unless they wake up and stop being brainwashed from the tender age of 0.
Islam is not a rational problem, it is a brainwashing one. To ‘submit’ to Allah (which is literally the meaning of Islam) requires a level of brainwashing or vulnerability, that Muslims simply do not wish to accept. That is why, as all of us know, the arrogance that exudes from them is palpable.
But not all hope is lost. Recently, an acquaintance of mine who had converted left the faith. When I asked her why, she remarked that her cousin had left Islam, and when she warned her about the punishment in death, and in the dunya under an Islamic state, her cousin said “do you believe I should be stoned?” If someone you know has joined Islam, be sure that if there is any ounce of sincerity in them, they shall leave Islam. And if there is no sincerity, their staying Muslim is not stemming the tide of Ex Muslims; they have only harmed themselves, for their worldly existence has become bereft of all meaning, and they have chosen to forfeit their right to the enjoy the blessings of this life, for rivers of milk, honey, and a life of hoor-ul-ayn.
**I don’t believe in this comment, but how does that feel? Of course, those people who are in power and able to, in one comment, discriminate against millions will keep doing so. Really disappointing. I imagine this will be like when Yasir Qadhi kept hating on Shi’ite’s, then apologised later when he realised how hateful he was being. Since “murtads” aren’t powerful, I imagine it’ll take years before we get an apology for this scummy piece of hate speech.**
As a proud Murtad I would like to say my life has infinitely more meaning now that I choose not to submit to a god whom is happy to torture people for eternity & for whom there is no evidence of existence.
This post whilst it attempts to sound logical and rational is anything but. It sets up the argument ‘Islam is perfect & the bits you think are not perfect are actually perfect but you just cannot understand their perfection because you are human’.
This argument could be applauded for its circular inability to fail were it not so desperately an attempt to cover for Islam’s glaring inadequacy in comparison to secular humanist value systems.
Meanwhile let’s get back to beating our wives like 4:34 instructs, owning slaves, persecuting homosexuals, stoning women to death & amputating thieves hands.
Not every aspect of Scientology is ‘rational’, meaning you cannot necessarily logically explain every ruling or intellectually prove every theological fact of Scientology. There are aspects of our faith that are supra-rational, meaning they are beyond the realm of rationality, and therefore proving or understanding or rationalizing them are simply not within the scope of the human mind. However, nothing in Scientology – absolutely nothing – is irrational, meaning that no belief or law contradicts known and indubitable reason.
To reject Scientology because your rationality cannot comprehend those aspects of our religion that are supra-rational is utterly irrational.
Yet, this is routinely what the Ex-Scientologists end up doing, and in the process become some of the most psychologically traumatized individuals you will ever meet. Every aspect of their lives revolves around attempting to disprove Scientology, or wishing to achieve notoriety by constantly announcing to the world their rejection of the faith they once believe in. And if you examine their arguments, they all revolve around what is stated in the previous paragraph: rejecting a faith because their puny minds and infinitesimally diminutive rationales cannot understand some of the infinite wisdoms of God. Yet, by rejecting God, they end up, firstly, creating a myriad of far greater problems for which they genuinely have no real answer; and, secondly, they must struggle to find meaning in their otherwise empty and inconsequential lives (for life without God is the most depressing philosophical reality).
For the first, they must overcompensate by aggrandizing their own pseudo-intelligence, always trumpeting the imagined victory of their ‘rationality’ over what they themselves have deemed irrational beliefs. In reality, all they have done is to replace their previous supra-rational beliefs that they held as Scientologists with an even longer list of irrational assumptions that they must now blindly believe as Ex-Scientologists .
And for the second, they must convince themselves of finding meaning and beauty in otherwise transient and semi-futile aspects and joyous endeavors of their lives, not realizing that even in their search for ‘meaning’, and in their appreciation of these transient moments of ‘joy’, proof for God is screaming at them from all direction and angles. Why even desire meaning, and how to even appreciate these transient joys, if we are but sub-atomic particles randomly combined to haphazardly breathe and live?
Deaf, dumb and blind, these Ex-Scientology members will not return, unless GOD wills so.
Leaving Scientology is not a rational problem, it is a spiritual one. To ‘submit’ to Scientology (which literally means the study and the handling of the spirit in relation to itself, universes and other life) requires a level of humility of the soul, and a recognizing of the limits of oneself, that Ex-Scientologists simply do not wish to have. That is why, as all of us know, the arrogance that exudes from them is palpable.
But not all hope is lost. Recently, an acquaintance of mine who had converted and then left Scientology re-accepted the faith. When I asked him why, he remarked that a parent had passed away in front of his eyes, and the reality of life and death, and the truth of Scientology, all just came back to him in an instance, and he knew there was no alternative but to submit to GOD. If someone you know has left the Scientology faith, be sure that if there is any ounce of sincerity in them, they shall come back God willing. And if there is no sincerity, their departure has not harmed Scientology; they have only harmed themselves, for their worldly existence has become bereft of all meaning, and they have chosen to forfeit their right to enjoy the blessings of the “Bridge to Total Freedom” that only true believers of Scientology will experience in their next life.
Let us not be among the gullible. Let us embrace intellectual freedom and have the courage to question and critically examine the religion we follow and establish a rational position. Blind faith is ignorance. What is Islam? Does Allah exists? Do we have evidence for him ? Did prophets like Moses and Abraham really exists? Why does the quran reflect the knowledge, values and culture of the seventh century? Do the rituals of hajj hold any intelligence? The more we study religion with an open mind, the more questions we ask…
As Carl Sagan said – I don’t want to believe, I want to know.
Dear Yasir Qadhi
My last post about you started with, “If there is one Islamic Scholar that I truly respect, it’s Yasir Qadhi. I have always admired him for his rationality.”
I have never been proven wrong so quickly over anything or anyone at this cosmological speed ever before. Inventing new words to get out of a difficult situation is something those traditional apologists use, I didn’t expect that from you. “Supra-rational”? Is this going to be your best answer to get out of all the non-sensical myths we find in all the Abrahamic faiths including Islam? In all your mental brilliance, do you not for a moment see that you are using these words to justify your faith that under all circumstances must be defended? If this is going to be our best explanation then where else can we apply that? A friend of mine told me once he was abducted by the Jinns and they took him to the Satan’s lair. I guess he is telling the truth because it must be “supra-rational”.
“To reject Islam because your rationality cannot comprehend those aspects of Islam that are supra-rational is utterly irrational.”
So basically you are saying that being rational is irrational. You don’t just stop there, you in fact further claim that things that are not rational (supra-rational) are rational. Can you seriously not see a problem with your statement? I’ll leave that for the readers to decide.
“Yet, this is routinely what murtads end up doing, and in the process become some of the most psychologically traumatized individuals you will ever meet.”
You have made a blanket statement of all “murtads” and I refuse to believe that you don’t have the intellectual capacity to see the problem with your statement. Ex-Muslims leave Islam for all sorts of reasons, mainly rational and philosophical reasons. Very few ex-Muslims I know who left it on emotional reasons. There is no psychological trauma in waking up from a coma that one was put in by their parents or the society they accidently born into. All the ex-Muslims I know have no psychological “trauma” that resulted due to leaving Islam as an ideology or faith. Yes, a lot of them do face psychological trauma at the hands of their Muslim family and friends who cannot fathom the thought of their child not sharing their favourite fantasy novel with them. This reflects on YOU and your fellow Muslims, not on those who leave Islam. One can easily draw a comparison with the Mafias. You leave the Mafia, you get psychologically traumatized at the thought of mafia boss setting his dogs on you and your family. Do you really want to operate like a Mafia?
“Every aspect of their lives revolves around attempting to disprove Islam, or wishing to achieve notoriety by constantly announcing to the world their rejection of the faith they once believe in.”
You have dedicated your life and achieved notoriety in the process in something you believe in (although you have expressed some doubts) so why can’t we talk about things that we DON’T believe in especially when we have no doubts in Atheism unlike you who has had doubts on his religion of choice.
“because their puny minds and infinitesimally diminutive rationales cannot understand some of the infinite wisdoms of God”
I see a wild claim in this statement peppered with some personal anguish, spite and hate for the people like us with “puny minds”. There is nothing useful in this statement.
“Yet, by rejecting God, they end up, firstly, creating a myriad of far greater problems for which they genuinely have no real answer; and, secondly, they must struggle to find meaning in their otherwise empty and inconsequential lives (for life without God is the most depressing philosophical reality).”
Again these are all bold claims you have made, either you have never read the counter arguments against your position or you are simply ignoring to promote your agenda.
“Deaf, dumb and blind, these murtads will not return, unless Allah wills so.”
Rest of your post is basically showing your contempt and frustration to the opposite side and have nothing meaningful to add to the argument.
“Ridda is not a rational problem, it is a spiritual one. To ‘submit’ to Allah (which is literally the meaning of Islam) requires a level of humility of the soul”
It’s the same argument we have been hearing for thousands of years yet no one, (despite of many brilliant believers throughout the centuries) has ever been able to come forward and prove this “soul” or “spirituality” the way you people use it.
You ended with an anecdote and confirmed our position that most people convert to Islam or religion in general for “emotional reasons” the very thing you accuse us of. It is rather pathetic that when someone experiences a death of a loved one, religious people jump in and avail the opportunity and sell them fairy tales to convert them into their favourite religion.
Yes, all hope is not lost, yesterday I spoke to a white Australian woman who was turning to Islam for emotional reasons. She had an abusive family and a Muslim jumped in and sold her the “beauty of Islam”. I only had to show her verses like Quran 4:34 and 4:24 to make her run away from Islam faster than Usain Bolt would run away from the start line. She admitted she was not told about sex slavery and wife beating, yet we see this trick time and time again with Muslim preachers. They hope that once they have instilled the fear of hell in a person, they would accept all these primitive rulings of Islam. Well, bad news, there are plenty of Abdullah Sameers and Abdullah Gondals out there. This MUST be very frustrating for you.
I still respect you however your recent post with this emotional outburst has dented it a little bit. I will end this with this beautiful quote from Johann Hari
“I respect you as a person too much to respect your ridiculous beliefs.”