In Islam it is forbidden to have sex with your wife while she is menstruating. This idea existed before Islam and continued into Islam. The idea that a woman is dirty or impure during menstruation comes from ancient myth and has no basis in reality. The author of the Quran seemed unaware of the purpose of the monthly period. There is no medical reason to avoid period sex and in fact many women are more sexually aroused during this period. If both partners are comfortable, intercourse during menstruation can be wonderful and satisfying.
The God of the Bible and Quran seems very concerned about avoiding women during their monthly cycle. But he never once mentioned in these books the purpose of the period. In fact, not once does the Quran mention the female egg. It seems completely unaware that it even exists![ref]Embryology in the Quran[/ref]
Karl Ernst von Baer discovered the mammalian ovum in 1827, and Edgar Allen discovered the human ovum in 1928.[ref]Egg Cell (Wikipedia)[/ref] As you can see, we literally had no idea it even existed until very recently.
If the Quran would have pointed out the female egg, this could have been one sign of its divine authorship.
History
Menstruation was not well understood until quite recently in history.
In fact, the word “taboo”comes from the Polynesian word tapua, which means both “sacred” and “menstrual flow.” So the very idea of a concept too powerful or horrible to even talk about is derived from the perfectly ordinary bit of blood that we women deal with every month.[ref]7 Crazy Period Myths[/ref]
Many cultures placed restrictions on menstruating women. In the Hindu faith, menstruating women are traditionally considered ritually impure and given rules to follow. During menstruation, women are not allowed to “enter the kitchen and temples, sleep in the day-time, bathe, wear flowers, have sex, touch other males or females. They may not mount a horse, ox, or elephant, nor may they drive a vehicle. Women themselves are seen as impure and polluted, and are often isolated as untouchables, unable to return to their family, for the length of their period.[ref]Menstrual Taboo (Wikipedia)[/ref]
Many misconceptions about menstrual blood can be found in the first century writings of Pliny the Elder. He wrote an encyclopedic work, Naturalis Historia (Natural History), which became a model for all other encyclopedias.[ref]Pliny the Elder (Wikipedia)[/ref] He claimed that contact with menstrual blood could wreak all sorts of havoc including cause rust on bronze and iron objects, drive dogs mad, turn wine sour, kill off hives of bees, cause unripe fruit to fall from the trees, turn sharp blades dull, and shrivel seedlings.[ref]Menses Madness: Menstruation Myths and the Medieval Mindset[/ref]
Ancient ideas about period sex
The French once believed that a baby born from period sex would be “puny, languid, and moribund, subject to an infinity of fetid maladies, foul and stinking”. The Romans attributed the deformity of the god Vulcan to menstrual intercourse between Juno and Jupiter. Even as late as 1950 a survey of women concluded that the most common reason for abstinence was fear that intercourse during menstruation might lead to injury hemmorhage or infection. [ref]The Curse: A Cultural History Of Menstruation (Google Books)[/ref]
The Bible
In Judaism, a woman during menstruation is referred to as “Nidah”. They are forbidden to be touch their wife or even sleep in the same bed as her.
Some went even further such as the Jews in Ethiopia and completely isolated the woman into a different residence known as a niddah or menstruation hut.
The Bible states:
And to a woman in her (state of) niddah impurity you should not come close (with intent to) reveal her nudity (Leviticus 18:19)
During the period of niddah, no sexual contact is allowed from the time the blood starts, until at least 7 days later if the blood has stopped. Once this occurs, the woman showers and take a ritual bath (immersion in Mikveh) similar to the muslim ghusl. Once she has done this, she is ritually pure again and can have sex with her husband once again.
Quran and Sunnah
In this narration Prophet Muhammad admits he makes up rules as he went along based on his understanding at the time.
“I heard the Messenger of Allah say: ‘I wanted to forbid intercourse with a nursing mother, but then (I saw that) the Persians and the Romans do this, and it does not kill their children.’ (Ibn Majah, Saheeh, and other collections[ref]What is the ruling on gheelah in Islam?[/ref])
Here we have him honestly admitting that he would have forbid all Muslims to have sex with their wives during the breastfeeding if he thought it was harmful. And thus billions of people would suffer because of one man’s ignorance. But is that not what Islam is? Muhammad’s faulty world view projected on the entire world?
Why would we want to base every aspect of our lives on the flawed understanding of Muhammad?
Muhammad also wanted his community to be different from the Jews and Christians, so he would intentionally modify their rules in order to make them different:
I heard the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) as saying: “Jews and Christians do not dye their hair, so act differently from them.”
(Bukhari and Muslim, Saheeh)
So when it comes to menstruation, sex with women is forbidden similar to Judaism, but the rules are different. The companions asked Muhammad about menstruation and this is what Allah revealed:
And they ask you about menstruation. Say, “It is harm, so keep away from wives during menstruation. And do not approach them until they are pure. And when they have purified themselves, then come to them from where Allah has ordained for you. Indeed, Allah loves those who are constantly repentant and loves those who purify themselves.” (Quran 2:222, Translation by Saheeh International)
Based on the Quran alone, you would think that “keep away” meant don’t go near them, but the hadith literature explains that this means sexually. This is an example of hadith explaining the Quran. The backstory is explained in the hadith literature:
The Jews, if any of their women was menstruating, would not eat with them or meet with them in their houses.
The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “So do everything except intercourse.” News of that reached the Jews and they said, “What does this man want? He does not leave any of our affairs but he differs from it!” (Muslim 302, Similarly recorded in Nasai, Saheeh)
The following hadith concludes that women are deficient in the religion because of this:
Narrated Abu Sa`id Al-Khudri:
Once Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) of `Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, “O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women).” They asked, “Why is it so, O Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) ?” He replied, “You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you.” The women asked, “O Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ)! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?” He said, “Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?” They replied in the affirmative. He said, “This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn’t it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?” The women replied in the affirmative. He said, “This is the deficiency in her religion.” (Bukhari 304)
So we learn from Allah in 2:222 that women who are menstruating are:
- impure (physically, spiritually)
- it is a harm
- and stay away from them (intercourse is implied by the hadith)
Muslim women neither pray nor fast nor do tawaf on their period. It’s not just a sexual issue. Women are considered ritually impure and cannot perform their ritual prayers or fasting. In the Hanafi school of thought touching Quran or reading certain parts is forbidden during this time.[ref]IslamQA.org on reading Quran when menstruating[/ref]Yet a normal cut or wound doesn’t stop a person from praying. It seems period blood is somehow different to Allah.[ref]Non menstrual bleeding – IslamQA[/ref]
Scholars come up with all sorts of nonsense pseudoscience in order to justify why you shouldn’t do it during her period:
Dr. Muhiy al-Deen al-‘Alabi said: “It is essential to refrain from having intercourse with a menstruating women because doing so leads to an increase in the flow of menstrual blood, because the veins of the uterus are congested and prone to rupture, and get damaged easily; and the wall of the vagina is also susceptible to injury, so the likelihood of inflammation is increased…”[ref]Can I have romance with my wife while she is in the state of inpurity (mens. and after child birth) – IslamQA[/ref][ref]The reason why it is forbidden to have intercourse with one’s wife when she is menstruating or bleeding following childbirth[/ref]
None of those reasons are medically sound. As with most Islamic pseudoscience, it’s coming up with the conclusion first and then trying to find justifications for it.
Giving women a break?
Is Islam giving women a break from having sex, fasting and praying during this time? Well it doesn’t seem like this was ever the reason. Nowhere in the Quran or Sunnah do we see this reasoning ever mentioned. The clear reason given is “impurity”
“And when they have purified (taṭahharna) themselves, then come to them from where Allah has ordained for you. ” (Quran 2:222)
We even have examples from the seerah where women were upset at being denied the option to worship. Aisha herself cried at not being able to complete her hajj because of menses. She narrates:
“We set out with no intention other than Hajj. And when we were in Sarif, my menses came. The Messenger of Allah entered upon me while I was weeping, and he said: ‘Have your menses come?’ I said; ‘Yes.’ He said; ‘That is something that Allah, the Mightily and Sublime, has decreed for the daughters of Adam. Do everything that the pilgrim in Ihram does, but do not circumambulate the House.” (Nasai, Sahih)
Whoever misses fasting in Ramadan due to menstruation has to make it up later, which is often more difficult because of having to do it on her own without the support of the community.
Strangely (and not well known), a pregnant woman is obliged to fast if she doesn’t fear for her baby[ref]Ruling on fasting for pregnant women and breastfeeding mothers[/ref][ref]Breastfeeding During Pregnancy[/ref], thus depriving her baby of valuable nutrients at an essential time. I remember being taught this by certain sheikhs who said at an AlMaghrib seminar “just because its difficult doesn’t mean its forbidden to fast while pregnant. You should fast if you can! I know many women who fasted while pregnant and breastfeeding” and sadly I also didn’t stop my wife from fasting while pregnant.
Muhammad called it a deficiency. How is this giving a woman a break?
What the science really says
Sex during a period is perfectly safe and can actually be quite enjoyable! Due to changes in hormone levels women may actually feel more sexually aroused during this time. For some women, sexual activity during menstruation can be even more pleasurable than at other times of the month. Period sex can be a pain reliever for women and lessen some of the symptoms such as cramps. And a study published in 2013 in Cephalalgia concluded that sexual activity may reduce migraine and cluster headache pain for some women. [ref]Everyday Health[/ref]
Islam is supposed to come to help mankind. How does putting arbitrary rules with no real benefit help us? There is no reason to restrict something that is perfectly natural and pleasurable between a husband and wife. If the wife doesn’t want sex during this time, that’s fine. She can tell her husband and he can be understanding. Putting a blanket ban on intercourse does not increase the love in the relationship and misses out on valuable bonding opportunities.
Further reading:
Photo credit: Romantic Bath by Alice Harold
Another superb article, Abdullah. Very interesting to read. Your writings are wonderful and I hope you continue to write many more. Best wishes.
http://www.reformingislam.org
My wife has excellent hygiene. When it comes to sex alone I wouldn’t even know she was having her period, it’s only the daily discomfort she feels that makes it obvious.
the Quran only forbids intercourse …other forms of intimacy are allowed for the couple to deal wth their desires…
the whole article assumes the Quran only forbids it for medical reasons…. is something harmful only if your doctor says so?
by your logic im sure if you use PROTECTION then theres nothing medically wrong with anal intercourse, bestiality, sleeping with a different women every night, orgies, adultery, etc…. lawrence Krauss even remarked incest is kind of ok so long as u use protection to prevent genetically deformed babies….so are you saying the Quran should allow incest too so long as the pair really ov each other and use protection???
I guess with the proper hygiene its medically ok for couples to risk exhanging blood and feces (anal intercourse) so long as they wash off their private parts after that….i for one think some men will find it disgusting and psychologically harmful…..
Medical science is an evolving field…. its not unusual for guidelines to change with time depending of the need/ situation/ new research…maybe in our current world of advanced medicine and hygiene; circumcision and no intercourse during menses are not as important the prophylactic measures of infection etc they once were ….but what you fail to understand is that muslims follow these things bcos God said so …we dont do things just bcos doctors say we can if we want to…. I did find this study which notes heavier bleeding in perimenopausal women https://www.athenainstitute.com/prsexme.html …. islam also allows marriage as soon as people hit puberty so not sure if the new research says its safe for this category as well …. if its harmful for just a segment of the normal female population thats still enough grounds to avoid it
( my email doesnt get updates so sorry if i dont respond to anything someone says)
same goes for alcohol……dont assume islam forbids intoxicants just for medical reasons and then write a tabloid article telling us how a little red wine is infact good for you and that islam is false bcos it bans it…
Okay let’s discuss. Why is it prohibited to pray and fast during a woman’s period?
i assume u are going to come up with a sinister reason for it? if you want to give a reason u have to find evidence for it from the Quran and sunnah and compare it with other evidence…….otherwise anyone can come up with any reason they want…
Did u know that there is a difference in opinion as to when a person vomits or bleeds such as a nose bleed then does wudu become obligatory or not…. bcos vomit and blood are considered najis… Some say its obligatory and some say mustahab…
however i dont think the reason is just bcos blood is impure she cant pray bcos there is a hadith in bukhari where a woman had bleeding between the periods and she asked pbuh about it. Pbuh said The bleeding is from a blood vessel and not the menses. So give up the prayers when the (real) menses begin and when it has finished, take a bath and start praying
Did you know that a woman can experience anywhere between mild to severe symptoms during her menses…..it can even be similar to illness so what harm is there in giving her a break from prayer and fasting….. are you now going to argue islam is sexist bcos men never get a break from prayer.
symptoms during menses may include abdominal cramps, head ache, back ache, pain, difficulty concentrating, mood swings, fatigue etc
coming to your original article….imagine a woman who has these symptoms during menses…..and islam had allowed intercourse during menses….. some husband would insist on sex with his unwell wife and you would have a tabloid article on how islam ill treats women bcos it doesnt give her a break during her menses..
i meant does vomiting or bleeding break wudu or not bcos they are considered najis
Harun, You raised some good points, which means I have to go back and do more research to respond to you properly. What I would like to know is, what is the meaning of “adha” (6th word here) http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=2&verse=222#(2:222:1)
Can you find it in Lane’s Lexicon? I couldnt find it
Also, why is it that sex with a woman who has a nosebleed or vomiting is okay?
I have never seen any hadith or Quranic verse about “giving her a break”, have you? It seems to be focused on the purity aspect. And it’s not even like fasting or praying or even doing tawaf is optional, its simply not allowed period!
Quran 2:222 says “And when they have purified themselves, then come to them from where Allah has ordained for you. ”
So while modern apologists may argue the “giving a break” angle, I don’t see that in the texts. Many Sahabi including Aisha were upset that they got their period and weren’t able to do hajj. It’s simply not allowed. Nothing to do with giving women a break
nose bleed and vomiting has nothing to do with sex……. i meant if you have wudu (state of ritual purity) and you vomit or bleed then bcos vomit and blood are najis some thought maybe it breaks your wudu ..
i just used it to explain that blood is najis
2:222 well after menstration women have to do a purification bath before they pray…..maybe it refers to that or maybe when she is bleeding the bleeding makes it a state of ritual impurity…who cares…….after both men and women have sex they are anyway both in ritual impurity until they have a purification bath …and there are other instances when a purification bath is required….
oh theres nothing modern in my view of concessions other than the words i used maybe….
Im sure some overzealous muslims when travelling long distances would prefer to not shorten the prayers….. however some scholars such as abu Haneefa say it is obligatory to shorten them and it is not allowed to pray it in full thus they are forced to take the concession….. so the same here… im also reminded of the overzealous ppl who made pbuh angry when they said theyd pray all night, not marry women, fast everyday……….. yes sometimes muslims want to do something but its not good for them and sometimes muslims dont want to do things which are infact good for them……
maybe Aisha was upset she couldnt do hajj bcos of the menses but the best part is she may have anyway gotten the reward of the hajj bcos the circumstance that prevented her from it was out of her control….its another basic principle in islam
i agree a woman is ritually impure in certain situations such as during menses but then so are men…… a man can also be ritually impure such as after sex or a wet dream and thus he cant pray till he purifies himself…
in some areas of islam men have the upper hand and in some areas of islam women have the upperhand…… again loosely based on physical, emotional, and other differences…. but overall they are considered equal in islam….
Because Allah knows best that that that time of the month women feel sick and some of them can’t handle her cramping. This is such an easy logic. Well for sexual intercose during period is another sample of how stupid you are. Is it dirty and can causing bacteria entering female uterus. I
H didn’t answer your question Abdullah. Because he has no answer. Typical really. The followers that blindly follow Islam cannot see reason or think logically.
u really are silly….. i gave possible reasons of why i think the ruling makes sense….. its like asking me why does God say to pray 5 times a day…… im not arrogant to pretend i know why God tells us to do things or partake in silly exercises like some do of saying what they would do if they were God or what they think God should do…… appreciate it if you minded your own business
H – Why did Mohammed say it’s better for women to have their genitals mutilated? To have their clitoris cut off?
Where is the godly logic and scientific reason for that?
im sorry i dont like engaging with people who learn about islam from incompetent tabloid articles and then ask questions with their minds already made up just bcos they want to argue ….unfortunately i find most of them ill educated on islam….. u brought up this topic so ill just tackle it quickly
firstly it is Pharaonic circumcision where the clitoris is excised and it has no place in islam
secondly it is only obligatory for males to circumsize the foreskin (notice i said skin not penis) FEMALES ARE NOT REQUIRED TO CIRCUMCISE
thirdly if circumcision is done on a female we only remove a little skin (i assume clitoral hood) to stop the secretions of the labia minora accumulating and leading to unpleasant odor/ infections….. pretty much the same reason as with men….the clitoral hood is a fold of skin that surrounds and protects the glans of the clitoris; it develops as part of the labia minora and is homologous with the foreskin in males….
cutting the glans of the clitoris would be like cutting the glans of the penis
Infact pbuh stressed the importance of not going to extreme in circumcision
the clitoris in a female is the equivalent of a penis in male…. so cutting the clitoris in a female is the equivalent of cutting the penis in a man….both of which are equally horrifying
Female circumcision is done by cutting a small part of the skin that looks like a rooster’s comb, above the exit of the urethra. The Sunnah is not to cut all of it, but rather a part of it. Al-Mawsoo’ah al-Fiqhiyyah (19/28).
neither the glans of the clitoris nor the glans of the penis is cut…….. just incase u mistkenly think im saying to cut them….. only skin is cut…….
H – Contrary to your comment it is NOT obligatory for males to be circumcised in Islam. The Quran does not even mention it. This practice is only taken from Hadith and is considered Sunnah for it to be performed meaning you get extra reward from Allah for having it done but if you do not have it done then there is no punishment nor is it a sin.
in the hadith what pbuh did is all called his sunnah……however in islamic fiqh rules some of that sunnah falls under wajib (obligatory) and some of it is mustahab (recommended)….
generally i think the view that its obligatory for boys seems more correct… authentic hadith literature is important to orthodox islam..some of the hadith and sahaba did seem to insist on it saying hajj and prayers may not be accepted….. theres the risk of urine drops collecting in the foreskin which is najjis…. anyway whats needed is just that some of the foreskin is cut so that the glans is visible… i personally think muslims should be proud to follow in the footsteps of ibrahim and all the prophets after him especially pbuh
i accept it is not in the Quran and have heard some scholars may have said its not obligatory but i dont know what they base that on…….
However if someone wants to embrace islam and he fears circumcision will harm him bcos a doctor says it could cause him injury then the requirement is waived off…..
If he embraces islam but doesnt circumsize himself it doesnt nullify his islam….basically it may be a sin but to not become a muslim is a graver issue….
God may pretty much forgive any sin except for shirk
H – Your comment – ‘i accept it is not in the Quran and have heard some scholars may have said its not obligatory but i dont know what they base that on……. ‘
I think they based that on the fact its not in the Quran and the Quran is the perfect book, the only guide that is needed for all of humanity (according to the Quran itself) so that’s that really, there is nothing to debate. If we are to believe that we ‘need’ Hadith to understand the Quran and add more rules and regulations in accordance to the Hadith then clearly the Quran is not a ‘clear’ book and not the only guide for all of humanity as we are being asked to follow an additional and external set of guidelines. If the Hadith was made to supplement the Quran why didn’t the Quran confirm this is to be the case?
if pbuh gives an order in an authentic hadith and theres no hadith to counteract it and make it only recommended then it becomes obligatory…..
the Quran tells us to obey the Messenger in numerous verses such as verse 4:80…he who obeys the messenger has obeyed Allah… etc .more verses here https://islamqa.info/en/604
obviously the Quran omits certain practical details which is why Allah gave us a messenger to see how to implement certain rulings in the Quran…
another example other than circumcision is having a beard…. since pbuh ordered muslims to grow the beard it becomes haram to shave…however there is room to decide how much of a beard to keep…
Aqeedah (theology) is a serious issue …. however in fiqh there is room to have different opinions…
One of the reasons there is differences in the various madhabs are the compiled books of authentic hadith came after the 4 imams so some of them were not exposed to certain authentic hadith….. However its not a big deal bcos all the 4 imams pretty much told us if an authentic hadith is found then pretty much ignore my opinion if it contradicts a direct teaching of pbuh
Also we have to differentiate between what pbuh said regarding matters of religion and what were just his everyday opinions on other matters…. for example i think he disliked to eat a particular type of desert lizard which he avoided but his companions ate….but these were his personal preferences… it didnt make that food item haram just bcos pbuh avoided it
its like the hadith about pollination where after his farming advice was taken and it didnt work out…. pbuh clearly stated if it is one of the matters of your religion, then refer to me. see here to understand this principle https://islamqa.info/en/1053
offcourse i remember Abdullah Sameer used the pollination hadith in his own incompetent way
The pollination hadith, and the one where he admits making up rules based on what he sees other cultures doing are Muhammad’s own undoing. We see his human side: “I heard the Messenger of Allah say: ‘I wanted to forbid intercourse with a nursing mother, but then (I saw that) the Persians and the Romans do this, and it does not kill their children.’ (Ibn Majah, Saheeh, and other collections))
This is worth reading, it shows in even more detail how he was referring to known ideas at the time to make up what is in the Quran: https://quranspotlight.wordpress.com/articles/quran-hadith-talmud-galen/
didnt u read what i wrote about the pollination hadith??? pbuh clearly said u dont have to listen to his farming advice…. so obviously dont assume his medical advice was from God either…. u seem to think we treat pbuh like the christians treat jesus… heres what i found on it
scholars say the reason why the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) thought of forbidding it was that he feared that the breastfed child may be harmed by it. The doctors used to say that that milk was harmful, and the Arabs disliked it and feared it.
There’s no reason to believe him – neither on pollination nor on matters of the unseen.
also to your question since the Quran is the perfect book why do we need hadith…..heres more info
https://islamqa.info/en/93111
also u say u were a devout muslim….surely u know islam confirms some of what is in the torah, corrects some of it and ignores some of it etc……Correlation does not imply causation…. especially when Judaism is also a confirmed religion from God
also regarding pbuhs medical advice…….even if you argue some of pbuhs medical advice has not been proved by science …..with the placebo effect some of his advice may have brought about results for the people of the time…
anyway the fact he is open about what he learnt from the persians and romans to me is a point in my favor….. The arabs at the time were suspicious of the act…..he could have taken credit for saying it was ok saying it was from God if he were a liar
I’m sorry but your answer only confirms that the Quran is not a clear and perfect book. The Quran is the word of God through the Prophet, anything as important as non-circumcised Muslims not having prayers and/or Hajj accepted is a big deal (given the ultimate eternity of torcher) would surely be included in the Quran so that it could not be disputed – after all its the word of God via the Prophet only and know one else so no room for error (supposedly).
However you are telling us that Hadith is equally as important and necessary even though these are the words of the common man dictated hundreds of years after the Prophets death and based on what the writer may have heard about the Prophet through various people and/or similar Hadith of its time. So Allah only trusted the Prophet to dictate the Quran but was quite happy to let the common man dictate the Prophets teachings that we should now hold equally as important to the Quran!!! That makes no sense at all, the Prophet had over two decades to dictate the Quran which supposedly provides a complete code of living life and guidance for preparing for the hereafter; Allah says ‘
“… And We have sent down to you the Book (the Quran), as an exposition of everything, a guidance, a mercy, and glad tidings for those who have submitted themselves (to Allah as Muslims).” Quran (Surah An-Nahl, Verse 89).
The word exposition means ‘a comprehensive description and explanation of an idea or theory’. So the Quran states the book is a comprehensive description and explanation of ‘everything’.
Yes you are correct the Quran tells Muslims to obey his messenger but surely that is meant to be in relation to what the messenger is dictating for the purpose of the Quran for anything obligatory in order to enter Jannet. However you want us to believe Allah allowed Hadith to be equally important and to be dictated by common man who are imperfect (as opposed to the Prophet whom was the perfect man) and can make grave errors and frankly tell outright lies (as some Hadith are supposedly meant to be). Then there is the need for scholars to study each and every Hadith to tell the world which is authentic and which is not to be trusted, really! Scholars can’t agree on the issue of Hadith nor in fact the Quran itself in relation to what exactly some statements actually mean and the great difficulties in translating it correctly for every non-Arabic speaker/reader in the world… not very clear at all is it!!!
Quite simply the Quran is the only book for humanity as Allah has entrusted only Jibril and the Prophet to transmit his word and not Hadith which is ‘supposedly’ transmitted by the Prophet but then further by the average Joe on the street.
Incredible response.
Maybe u think God should have just avoided sending a prophet and instead dropped a book the size of a 100 story building with all the information that man would ever need……. if you think the Quran should mention beards and circumsion……. i guess u think it should also mention how to have a bath and cut your finger nails…… if thats what you want that your problem
i dont know what u mean by pbuh was the perfect man and God only knows what your idea of a perfect book that explains everything is….. maybe you think the Quran should have mentioned the exact circumference of the Sun or maybe you like Abdullah Sameer thinks bcos the Quran doesnt talk about female eggs it cant be a perfect book… i can only imagine what the arabs at the time would have said…theyd probably have accused pbuh of calling women chickens ….which is funny bcos they called him all sorts of things but they never accused him of ill treating women
your problem is uve come up with all sorts of false assumptions compounded with false conclusions to those false assumptions…… youve even given me the definition of the word exposition ……i bet if you looked at another translation of that ayah you wouldnt even see the word exposition in it…..thats the extent to which u lack the most basic of fundamentals……
whats even more dangerous is you put words in my mouth…… where on earth did i say the Quran is equal to the hadith ….. i dont belive that let alone me expecting you to beieve that… u need a basic crash course of the science of hadith from someone credible to start off with…… bilal philips has a series called the science of hadith……u can find it on youtube…
Pls watch it before you pretend to know anything about hadith and its classification…..
Before you get into a debate with someone u need to actual do your research on the topic
Also before you laugh about it being called the science of hadith just remember that muslims are credited with pioneering the modern scientific method of emphasizing the importance of practical experimentation and not just theory and philosophy…
also the Quran tells you to pray but obviously it doesnt detail all the minute details such as what to say in ruku and sujud etc………… we all know the importance of prayer in islam so i guess now u can go tell everyone that bcos a muslim can only pray if he uses the hadith the Quran is not a perfect book…… Considering the incompetence i see here….im sure ull find someone to praise you for it….. Reforming Islam might ask you to start your very own section in their site
The Quran actually leaves much room for improvement. Some documented here: http://thebetterquran.com/
also i already mentioned i have never seen any evidence to say circumcision is not obligatory……maybe like you said its only those so called scholars who reject the hadith that say its not obligatory…
in which case thats not even evidence……..
H – If the Quran is the “perfect” and “complete” book, then New Apostate is completely right in what he says. Why do we have to refer a library of hadith? That is just insane. It makes absolutely no sense. The quran is therefore not perfect and not complete.
Also, with regards to circumcision. The quran proudly proclaims that god made the human body “perfect”. If the human body is perfect, then why does Islam require to start cutting and mutilating genitals? Did god make a mistake after all? That we need to get knives out and start correcting “gods perfect work”? And don’t start giving me the lame fingernails and hair nonsense. Nails and hair do not have blood vessels, they are not comparable to genital mutilation which BLEEDS and often leads to death.
Basically, Allah made a mistake with the human body. The quran is imperfect and incomplete. The hadith is a hogwash of hearsay that you can either pretend is “authentic” or not. Its a big joke. And only a blind follower would be silly enough not to see this.
the biggest problem with people like u and Sameer is its obvious u guys dont understand islam at all…..u guys are just secularists who are trying looking at the Quran thru your twisted world view of what the world should be…
u guys say God said he made the human body perfect…where on earth do you get this understanding??? one of Sameers silly articles im guessing……what do u mean by perfect…..do u really think muslims and our prophet think the human body is literally perfect?? why the hell do we get old and get diseases if the human body is perfect..if the human body was perfect why does it stop working and die……you are a novice taking words out of context …… Sameer or u have obviously found a verse like 95:4 and twisted the translation to say something muslims and the prophet pbuh never claimed….. u guys come up with crazy nonsense from the translation and then ask us to explain the nonsense u guys came up with…..its not our fault if you dont know the rules in interpreting the Quran and so cant understand simple things clearly……
i was shocked at the absurdity when you actually claimed God teaches us to cut off the clitoris… ud think after that nonsence ud actually humbe yourself and take some time to do some actual study before u talk about islam but here u are again coming up with ur nonsense
u guys say things like the Quran is perfect and complete so it doesnt need hadith….. where did you get this from….where is your evidence for this from islam?? as a muslim i believe God revealed to us the Quran and God also sent us the messenger to show us the way.
Even if a muslim says the Quran is perfect…..his view of what that means ca be different from how you understand it……. for example the muslim may mean the Quran is perfect in the guidance it gives….. maybe to your secular mind the guidance is not prefect…. but to a muslim it is…..
God gives us general guidelines in the Quran and he gave us pbuh to expand on the details…..so indirectly the Quran does mention circumcision…….
in C30V30 God says ‘So direct your face toward the religion, inclining to truth. [Adhere to] the fitrah of Allah upon which He has created [all] people. No change should there be in the creation of Allah. That is the correct religion, but most of the people do not know.’
Now to understand what is the fitrah this verse speaks of….. we learn it from pbuh in the hadith literature..pbuh said the fitrah includes removing the pubic hair, circumcision, trimming the moustache, plucking the armpit hairs, and trimming the nails. Now this saying was recorded by his disciple Abu Hurayra during pbuhs lifetime……… the companions not only wrote down and memorized Quran during pbuhs lifetime…they also wrote down and memorized hadith..
all the hadith books did was to collect the already exisitng hadith such as this one. In the early makkan stage they didnt write down hadith bcos pbuh was afraid that theyd mix it up with Quran…but later on as the disciples grew in knowledge they grew in responsiblity
You may now still insist and say if the Quran is perfect it should directly mention circucision.. but that is just your absurd view which muslims dont have to listen to
imagine if i impose my world view on you and said…. you and Sameer are only rational people if you become muslims…. you would say that is your crazy opinion and just bcos we dont become muslims doesnt mean we are not rational people and infact it is bcos we are rational that we choose not to be muslims……. then if i insist and say no no u can only be rational if you become muslim…..ud probably think this guy is nuts….
Where on earth does the Quran say it is complete and so muslims should not follow pbuh ????? infact it says the opposite…if the Quran clearly tells us to follow pbuh and the very first generation of muslims (sahaba) understood we have to collect pbuhs sayings and actions..infact some sahaba devoted their lives fulll time to living with pbuh behind the masjid in medina and recording his sunnah …… now 1400 years later u ignorant, arrogant people are trying to tell us muslims how we should understand the Quran….. why the hell any muslim would listen to u incompetent people is beyond me…..
Infact i think its important that God gave us pbuh to interret the Quran or else we’d have people like Sameer and his nonsense
its all a bunch of straw man arguments where u guys make bogus claims and then ask muslims to defend those bogus claims…u need to bring your proof from the Quran and sunnah and an authentic muslim understanding before you make silly claims
Trust me if you in this page alone have not seen the absurdity of Sameers accusations you probably never will unless you remove your secular lenses of what the world should be….Any muslim who actually studies his faith will be shocked at his nonsence….im surprised that he doesnt even know the basic rulings of understanding islam………hes just someone who goes about collecting facts and then puts them together in absurd ways….he has absolutely no training or wisdom to put anything regarding islam together …..when it comes to science he makes sure to listen to the experts but when it comes to religion he seems to think he is some sort of expert…. its like asking an accountant to do heart surgery….. the accountant can just look at the facts but he has no idea how to put the theory together in a cohesive way…
H – I’m just responding to your earlier comment from yesterday.
You: Maybe u think God should have just avoided sending a prophet and instead dropped a book the size of a 100 story building with all the information that man would ever need……. if you think the Quran should mention beards and circumsion……. i guess u think it should also mention how to have a bath and cut your finger nails…… if thats what you want that your problem
Me: There would not need to be a very large book as you allude to in your description above. Hadith is not only confirmation of the Prophets Sunnah but it tells stories, describes countless pointless conversations and so a lot of wasted writing on issues not detrimental to a person attempting to follow Islam like stories of the talking cow and talking wolf or crying tree, another words matters not particularly necessary for one to be able to practice Islam. If you cut all that out and stick to the rules, regulations with their explanations i.e. the really important stuff that you need to get you in to Jannat, then such information can be greatly condensed and then easily incorporated in to the Quran without making it too large. Even if such info doubled the size of the Quran why would that matter, it’s the word of God and if you believe it then you will read it no matter how big it is. What difference is it to the current format of the Quran in one book and then separate Hadith books with different meanings, some authentic and some supposedly lies, isn’t that a more difficult system and allegedly proven untrustworthy?
The problem with Islam is every little aspect of a person’s life is scrutinised, controlled and made complicated which is all so unnecessary and most of which is pointless. The whole point of this control and the endless arbitrary rules is to keep all followers in a perpetual state of fear in that you may be punish for not doing something correctly and therefore makes a person pray continuously asking for forgiveness on a daily basis. Let’s face it nobody can get through an entire day without doing something wrong in the eyes of Islam if we are to believe everything the Quran and Hadith tells us. Even walking down the street and glancing at a beautiful women with just the tiniest thought of lust, which is just in a man’s nature, but we immediately must ask for forgiveness along with the million and 1 other things we all probably do wrong. My view is if something is detrimental to entering Jannat i.e. obligatory duty such as circumcision, then it should reasonably be expected to appear in the Quran and by all means supported later with Hadith. Things such as growing a beard, how to lick you fingers after the meal like the Prophet and the best way to drink water etc are not obligatory so there would not be a need for this to be incorporated in the Quran and can remain in Hadith.
You: i dont know what u mean by pbuh was the perfect man and God only knows what your idea of a perfect book that explains everything is….. maybe you think the Quran should have mentioned the exact circumference of the Sun or maybe you like Abdullah Sameer thinks bcos the Quran doesnt talk about female eggs it cant be a perfect book… i can only imagine what the arabs at the time would have said…theyd probably have accused pbuh of calling women chickens ….which is funny bcos they called him all sorts of things but they never accused him of ill treating women
Me: How can you not know what I mean by ‘pbuh was the perfect man’ your Religion explains why he is supposedly perfect and there are books specifically written about it, so my meaning is no different to what Islam says on the subject. In my opinion there is no book that is perfect, it is the Quran that is self-proclaimed perfect but that in itself is an idiocy given that you cannot live with only the Quran you have to study the Hadith. Sure it may still be a very good book, a best seller but by reliance of the Hadith to fully understand it, it cannot under any circumstances be called perfect, that is my opinion. Allah states that he will safe guard the Quran and protect it form corruption; “Surely, We have revealed the ‘Zhikr’ (Quran), and surely, We will preserve it” 15:9… and… “No falsehood will come to it, in the present or in the future; a revelation from One who is Wise and Praiseworthy.” 41:42. Yet no such safeguard has been put in place for the Hadith and as we all know of the 7000 Hadith only a fraction are considered authentic so Allah seemingly left it to the common man to study in depth these scriptures to figure out truths from lies for ourselves and we are supposed to trust that the ‘authentic’ ones are correct and trustworthy. As Hadith study is only man’s ‘best guess’ there is nothing to say any of the untrustworthy ones are actually correct and therefore man has either deliberately or in error led us down a wrong path by telling us to disregard an important rule or regulation. Why would Allah not safe guard the Sunnah of the Prophet in Hadith like he did with the Quran? The Quran was written contemporaneously as it came out of the Prophets mouth, the same cannot be said for Sunnah of the Prophet, the Hadith was word of mouth and penned generations after the Prophets death so at best it’s simply the best game of Chinese whispers ever played by humanity.
It would have been fantastic if the Quran mentioned the circumference of the sun but also the fact it does not set in to murky waters but rather the Earth and moon revolves around the sun also yes it would be great if it detailed female eggs rather than copy what the ancient Greeks said on the subject of embryology, then there would be no doubt whatsoever as to the validity of Islam that would be unequivocal proof of the Qurans divine origin and we would all follow it, after all that is what Allah and the Prophets all wanted us to do they tried really hard to get us to believe. But no it simply plagiarises from ancient theories that were known to man at that time, nothing new or miraculous appears, shame really. Allah would have known all the chaos and division the scriptures would cause in the world and no more so than amongst Muslims themselves (look at us arguing right now) but maybe he needs some entertainment I guess even a divine entity must need a laugh too!
The Prophet calling women chickens would probably have been less insulting than saying all women are stupid which is what is implied by stating all women are created with a deficiency in the mind and therefore need two witnesses against a man’s one! You are right though, the people certainly did not accuse him of ill-treating women, but only as they too equally treated them badly and believed it was normal (well it was for that time and place) and as the Prophet did acted in this way then it was Sunnah so not considered bad in any event. Let’s see, he married a 6yr old and consummated the marriage when she was 9, he had 9 wives at any one time (Hadith clearly shows they were not happy with this arrangement but put up with it as he was the Prophet after all) and 13 wives in total in his lifetime, he was also having ‘relations’ with slaves/maid (whatever they were called), he hit Aisha on the chest which according to her caused her pain (as per authentic Hadith), well he did authorise wife beating so it’s not considered bad behaviour or ill-treating women as he says its ok. He also killed women, well documented; one was killed just because she made fun of him in a poem. Authorising his soldiers to have sex with the slave girls fresh off the battle field (oh I’m sure those women were well up for ‘relations’ with these men post slaying of their entire male family members) Yeah what a perfect guy.
You: your problem is uve come up with all sorts of false assumptions compounded with false conclusions to those false assumptions…… youve even given me the definition of the word exposition ……i bet if you looked at another translation of that ayah you wouldnt even see the word exposition in it…..thats the extent to which u lack the most basic of fundamentals……
Me: Ah the translation issue yet again comes to the Muslims rescue. Well what can I say, the English version I happened to read used the word ‘exposition’ and I agree another version perhaps would not use that word and may use another similar word or something different altogether give the sentence a whole new meaning altogether. Well there is your problem, your perfect Religion and perfect book cannot be properly translated for all of humanity can it, the fact is its very far from perfect. All copies are different and all can give the reader a variant meaning hence why Muslims from various Countries all practice it differently, hence why scholars worldwide cannot agree on a certain issues and that’s in relation to pure Arabic versions so supposedly in its unchanged and true format let alone the translated versions. Perhaps I do lack basic fundamentals but I do not have time to study for a PhD in Arabic and Islam which, apparently is what all Muslims need to do if they are to have any hope of understanding what it actually means and how it should be followed in order to get to those beautiful houris waiting for us in the pearl laden tent.
You: whats even more dangerous is you put words in my mouth…… where on earth did i say the Quran is equal to the hadith ….. i dont belive that let alone me expecting you to beieve that… u need a basic crash course of the science of hadith from someone credible to start off with…… bilal philips has a series called the science of hadith……u can find it on youtube…
Pls watch it before you pretend to know anything about hadith and its classification…..
Before you get into a debate with someone u need to actual do your research on the topic
Also before you laugh about it being called the science of hadith just remember that muslims are credited with pioneering the modern scientific method of emphasizing the importance of practical experimentation and not just theory and philosophy…
Me: Hang on a second you were the one that pasted the link https://islamqa.info/en/93111 earlier in the debate which having read, even by my less than basic understanding of Hadith, is purporting an importance of equal status between Quran and Hadith. This on the basis it uses phrases such as; ‘Qur’an needs the Sunnah more than the Sunnah needs the Qur’an As Imam al-Awzaa‘i (may Allah have mercy on him) said: The Book needs the Sunnah more than the Sunnah needs the Book’… and… ‘Thus it should be clear: That it is not permissible for anyone to separate the Qur’an from the Sunnah when it comes to confirming rulings and their binding nature upon the one who is accountable’. In fact the writer of that enlightening piece gives such a great weight to Hadith one may even believe it is more important than the Quran in terms of observing the laws and regulations of the affairs of all Muslims. This must be the case if obligatory circumcision is not mentioned in the Quran but is so in Hadith and is deemed obligatory I fail to see how it can not be equally as important. So forgive me if I miss-interpreted exactly how important Hadith is to you by stating ‘equally’ however I assumed you believed/supported what was written in that link but if you don’t then why send it? As you feel this was so ‘dangerous’ that I was putting words into your mouth perhaps you can confirm what percentage of importance we should hold you to on this subject, 80/20 perhaps!
I’m not pretending to know anything about Hadith or Religion for that matter as I don’t need to know anything about it to tell you it’s not real. Just like I don’t need to know anything about Santa Claus like what he wore, where he lived, what he constituted to be a good person to be worthy of receiving presents, the names of his reindeers etc. Notwithstanding my lack of basic knowledge of Santa and everything he stood for I can still tell you he doesn’t exist. The fact is I have no desire to study the science of Hadith or the Quran on the basis it is man-made. I don’t need to refer to ‘credible’ people or scholars or muftis to enlighten me on the absurdities of Religion. I read the Quran cover to cover and all of Sahih Bukhari and after I stopped laughing I felt a big weight lift off my shoulders when it dawned on me that we have all been fed a lie and so I now live my life without fear and/or guilt and can now truly be happy. In fact it is you and all practicing Muslims that need the constant reassurance of your faith through what you believe are ‘credible people’ (to normal people they are just deluded brainwashed people), you are the ones who seek excuse after excuse for the abhorrent things Religion has cast upon humanity to make yourself feel better and legitimize what is morally corrupt. A non-believer does not need to refer to anyone for guidance but can simply point to the scripture to see it’s false.
I’m glad you hold yourself And please before you lecture others on whether they are qualified to debate perhaps you should learn English as yours is shockingly bad and it is you that should not be debating when you have not even a basic grasp on the English language. This is not just in relation to your grammar and punctuation but also how you string a sentence together, almost childlike. Also your constant attempt to belittle and insult others whom debate with you when they have not sought to attack you personally. Seems to be the typical style of Religious people, to be aggressive and insulting and you are all the same in every forum I have ever visited. Certainly not a great advert for Religion.
Anyway good luck to you and your endeavour in Islam.
its good of u to make it clear that uve no desire to study the science of Hadith or the Quran……i guess it should have been obvious to me the moment i read the silly accusations u guys seem to think are rational…
If u guys have no interest in learning what islam really teaches then ive no responsibility to correct and explain what islams real stance on your new list of amateur research is
i guess the equivalent of my english is your understanding of islam…… the sad fact however is we were debating islam and not the english language…
im honest enough to admit english is not my first language and ive better things to do than bother about the english language anyway
Anyways i think ive said enough….Peace
New Apostate – Fantastic response. So much intelligence shown, and you certainly put H in his place!
H – You questioned my comment that the Quran claims God made the human body perfect. Have you even read the fictitious Quran? Here is the verse which should jog your selective memory:
Who perfected everything which He created and began the creation of man from clay – Quran 32:7
So, clearly Allah PERFECTED everything he created. But, he didn’t though did he! Because you get your knives out and start cutting genitals – and people DIE as a result. Yes, many people die a painful death due to Muslims correcting the mistakes that Allah made when he “PERFECTED” the human body creation.
Basically H, you do not have a leg to stand on. Your arguments are false and without any foundation. Bogus claims. Bogus book.
haha really…… i explained to him how circumcision was indirectly mentioned in the Quran using the word ‘fitrah’ yet his intelligence couldnt seem to comprehend that and he just repeated the same argument again…. luckily for him his incompetence in islamic matters is masked by his english prowess…. i guess maybe thats why Sammer’s articles seem to do well, i suppose he writes well.
u three are like the three musketeers…. the possible english expert, the pseudo islamic expert and now the pseudo medical expert….. let me just tie up the loose ends of what we already discussed since u brought up some new points…..
i applaud you for giving me a verse….Sameer approves of corpus Quran so you can check for youself that the word ‘Ahsana’ is translated as ‘made good’ in the word to word dictionary… So it doesnt necessarily have to mean perfected
http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=32&verse=7#(32:7:1)
you can also see that most translations dont translate it as perfected and if you take it to mean perfect you really need to see the tafsir to see its not in the way u think of it
http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=32&verse=7
I dont understand why you guys want to spend your lives doing this…..u guys dont seem to know the basics of Quranic exegesis……
Amazing how the Quran guides some people…..and others who are insincere are allowed to go astray……may Allah guide you three and me as well
trust me im the last person u want to argue about medicine with………let me show you the guidelines of the American Urological Association regarding circucision in neonates… https://www.auanet.org/about/policy-statements/circumcision.cfm
you can clearly see for yourself that the benefits far outweigh the risks…… things are not always black and white in complex fields such as medicine and religion….so sometimes you need to consult the experts …… almost all surgical procedures have risks so maybe you need to start a website on reforming the medical field.to make it more PERFECT….as you love saying
Properly performed neonatal circumcision prevents phimosis, paraphimosis and balanoposthitis, and is associated with a decreased incidence of cancer of the penis among U.S. males. In addition, there is a connection between the foreskin and urinary tract infections in the neonate. For the first three to six months of life, the incidence of urinary tract infections is at least ten times higher in uncircumcised than circumcised boys.
Three studies from African nations published in 2005 and 2007 provide convincing evidence that circumcision reduces by 50-60% the risk of transmitting the human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) to HIV negative men through sexual contact with HIV positive females. While the results of studies in African nations may not necessarily be extrapolated to men in the United States at risk for HIV infection, the American Urological Association recommends that circumcision should be presented as an option for health benefits.
also 4:28 says man was created weak…..so obviously man cant be both perfect and weak……again showing your interpretation is wrong
haha really…… i explained to him how circumcision was indirectly mentioned in the Quran using the word ‘fitrah’ yet his intelligence couldnt seem to comprehend that and he just repeated the same argument again…. luckily for him his incompetence in islamic matters is masked by his english prowess…. i guess maybe thats why Sammer’s articles seem to do well, i suppose he writes well.
u three are like the three musketeers…. the possible english expert, the pseudo islamic expert and now the pseudo medical expert….. let me just tie up the loose ends of what we already discussed since u brought up some new points…..
i applaud you for giving me a verse….Sameer approves of corpus Quran so you can check for youself that the word ‘Ahsana’ is translated as ‘made good’ in the word to word dictionary… So it doesnt necessarily have to mean perfected
http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=32&verse=7#(32:7:1)
you can also see that most translations dont translate it as perfected
http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=32&verse=7
I dont understand why you guys want to spend your lives doing this…..u guys dont seem to know the basics of Quranic exegesis……
Amazing how the Quran guides some people…..and others who are insincere are allowed to go astray……may Allah guide you three and me as well
trust me im the last person u want to argue about medicine with………let me show you the guidelines of the American Urological Association regarding circucision in neonates… https://www.auanet.org/about/policy-statements/circumcision.cfm
you can clearly see for yourself that the benefits far outweigh the risks…… things are not always black and white in complex fields such as medicine and religion….so sometimes you need to consult the experts …… almost all surgical procedures have risks so maybe you need to start a website on reforming the medical field.to make it more PERFECT….as you love saying
Properly performed neonatal circumcision prevents phimosis, paraphimosis and balanoposthitis, and is associated with a decreased incidence of cancer of the penis among U.S. males. In addition, there is a connection between the foreskin and urinary tract infections in the neonate. For the first three to six months of life, the incidence of urinary tract infections is at least ten times higher in uncircumcised than circumcised boys.
Three studies from African nations published in 2005 and 2007 provide convincing evidence that circumcision reduces by 50-60% the risk of transmitting the human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) to HIV negative men through sexual contact with HIV positive females. While the results of studies in African nations may not necessarily be extrapolated to men in the United States at risk for HIV infection, the American Urological Association recommends that circumcision should be presented as an option for health benefits.
4:28 also says man was created weak……….so obviously u cant interpret it as man was created literally perfect….. common sense alone is enough to dispel such an interpretation… if you find another verse saying man is perfect look up other translations as well as the word in question using corpus Quran
Three Musketeers were probably too intelligent… maybe The Three Stooges!
I understand fitrah but you are ignoring what I said, Quran is protected by Allah from corruption but no such protection is in place for Hadith which was transmitted via Chinese whispers, the Prophets Sunnah was not recorded contemporaneously… how can we trust Hadith albeit some classed as ‘authentic’ and even those cannot be 100% authentic!!!! That is the point, I originally said as its [circumcision] not in the Quran then surely it cannot be obligatory as obligatory actions that make or break your chance of entering Jannat would surely be protected in the Quran. Why leave something so important to word of mouth which is what Hadith is, leaving it to mere mortal men to ‘best guess’; which Hadith is lie and which is truth? Just seems silly to me and that’s my opinion.
Hadith were recorded during pbuh’s time…..imam Ahmed, imam Malik all had their own hadith books with narrations collected from sahaba…. Some sahaba devoted their lives to collecting hadith for example Abu hurayra ….even pbuh’s wife Ayesha is I think the third largest collector of hadith….she was one of the greatest scholars of her time with deep insight into fiqh bcos of her unique position and proximity to pbuh.. Point is the sahaba did collect hadith…. Later Scholars like bukhary, muslim etc saw the need to compile them into books which were more strict in what they included bcos as time was going by certain hypocrites, liars etc were introducing fabricated hadiths which were starting to circulate in society
Obviously Muslims dont accept all hadith…especially those that contradict the Quran or have an issue with the chain of narrators etc.. Again it’s not a black and white issue….. U cant just accept all hadith or reject all hadith…..
I don’t think anyone said to not be circumsised is a nullifier of islam… Anyway it’s usually the parents who circumsise the child.. If someone is not circumsised it’s ususally for individual medical reasons.. I already mentioned a convert too can still be Muslim even without curcumcision.. They’ve probably got to be extra vigilant however to do their best to wash up properly after urinating bcos urine is najis which invalidates Salah…
When it comes to fiqh Muslims are very flexible and open to different views and interpretations… it’s usually only in aqeedah issues that we are quite strict for fear of falling into shirk
If a practicing Muslim who falls into the sin of sodomY can still enter paradise … do u think uncircumcised Muslims cant?…..
The sin God says He won’t forgive is shirk bcos the worship of God alone is the whole purpose of our existence…..the core message of islam is its monotheism, infact islams monotheism is so pure that even Jewish rabbis have no problem accepting that according to their sacred texts islam unlike Christiansity fulfill their criteria required for non jews to enter paradise
Thanks RI – and you are correct, there are many other quotes from Quran of Allah’s perfect creation;
“Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; then of that clot We made a (foetus) lump; then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature. So blessed be Allah, the best to create!” Quran 23:14
“The work of Allah who has perfected everything (He created). Quran 27:88
“He is the One Who has made perfectly everything He has created: He began the creation of human beings with clay, And made his progeny from a quintessence of the nature of a fluid despised: But He fashioned him in due proportion, and breathed into him something of His spirit…” Quran 32:7-9
“…You can see no fault in the creations of the Most Beneficent. Then look again: “Can you see any rifts?” Quran 67:3
“…You can see no fault in the creations of the Most Beneficent. Then look again: “Can you see any rifts?” Quran 67:3
“Who created you, fashioned you perfectly, and gave you due proportion” Quran 82:7
“In whatever form He willed has He assembled you.” Quran 82:8
“We have indeed created humankind in the best of moulds.” Quran 95:4
Oh but hang on, which translated version of the Quran are we getting these quotes from? Is it even correct? Perhaps if we read another version it may not use the word perfect at all! Maybe the Arabic version uses a word similar to perfect but actually it means ‘nearly’ perfect! What if the entire quote in Arabic cannot be properly translated in English and therefore is giving the impression that it means Allah created man perfectly when it doesn’t actually mean that at all (apparently Muslims tell me this ‘translation’ problem is quite common with things like wife beating, sex with slaves, murder… sorry I mean lawful killings)!!!
Damn my puny brain, I wish I was intelligent enough to understand this perfect and clear book. Maybe H is right, he must have a much higher level of understanding and we are just looking at the Quran through our own twisted world view… oh well C’est la vie.
Hilarious New Apostle. Allah certainly made a lot of things PERFECTLY. So perfect, that genitals need to be mutilated. What a perfect mistake to make when creating the perfect human body. Its just perfect. I love perfection.
Also, going back to the perfect, timeless quran. In every sane person’s view, a book would be perfect if it was free from any errors. Free from corrections. But, wait. The Quran is a minefield of embarrassing abrogations. One after the other. One minute wine is ok. The next minute wine is banned. How is that a perfect book? Full of mistakes and full of corrections. It is like a child’s piece of work. It is laughable. The book of God where God keeps changing his mind depending on which side of bed he fell out of that particular morning.
The Quran is a lot of things. But, perfect it most definitely is not.
@H
You remind me of how I was. You’re well trained bro. Islam is in need of good marketing apologetics like you honestly. How on Earth can Muhammad have the luxury of telling us what NOT to take from him (ex. pollination). How can you separate “dunya affairs.” Wouldn’t his advice on taking honey be considered dunya as well? Give me your principle on how to separate and prove this logic is flawed and contracts itself.
You have all the information, just look at things objectively.
It’s clear that they thought women were impure due menses for no apparent reason.
I’m actually shocked that Muhammad didn’t attempt to explain this one ( I still need to search).
Did u see how I responded to that elsewhere in the comments? Why do u say menstruation makes a woman impure for no apparent reason??
She’s leaking menstrual blood…..even if u say Islam classifies that as a state of ritual impurity and so after her cycle ends she has to have a purification bath (ghusl) …. I don’t see what the big deal is bcos the same thing applies to a man who ejaculates. He too is in a state of ritual impurity… It’s not enough to just wash off his private parts…..he too has to have a purifucation bath (ghusl) ….
So its not like women are inherently impure in Islam or whatever else u guys are trying to say…..my Muslim brain doesn’t understand the point he is making
as I mentioned elsewhere these are all secondary issues…… The core message of islam is the Oneness of God and Worshipping Him alone……. Shirk is the unforgivable sin. Sex during menstruation is a forgivable sin so it’s not like islam condemns someone to eternal damnation bcos they didn’t circumsise and had sex during menstruation
Honey is different bcos the Quran says honey has healing….so God says it….and it’s not only in the hadith..
I don’t have a ready made list of how these things work, the rules of hadith etc… Youll find various principles scattered here…I first contacted Sameer in his YouTube evolution video …. u can read those comments….I then started commenting on his blog starting with the mathematical patterns in the Quran..
Point is Muslims love pbuh more than we love our own mothers….so the early generation recorded everything about pbuh that they could…we even know the type of sandals he would wear..but obviously that doesn’t mean people up north are rewarded for walking in the snow with sandals…. We know pbuh had long hair….but it doesn’t have the significance in religion that the beard has…remember pbuh is our prophet with a message and not a divine being on earth
The biggest blunder Sameer makes is he doesn’t look to islams teachings objectively as a whole….he just chooses a certain topic and writes all the negative stuff about it…. He doesn’t realise that if he were to compare the negative with the positive then overall the positive outweighs the negative….
sort of like Reforming islam did with circumcision…first assuming it meant clitoral excision then talking about negatives like possible deaths…..obviously if you talk of circumsision like that anyone would be horrified….
Sameer is like an outsider looking in…he seems to have embraced secular morality and values even whilst a Muslim and then he expected islam to conform to secular values……Islam was once a super power…do u really think all Muslims have the inferiority complex of wanting to please the secular world and win over their approval….. If the west values their ctizens lives more than those of other nations..do u really think we Muslims should value Muslim lives less?…the whole premise is that islam should somehow bend over backwards to make u guys love us… Theres one guy who got upset bcos i didn’t follow the rules of the english language…. Meanwhile they butcher the arabic Quran bcos of what the english translation says…. Why should the rules of Quranic arabic take a back seat to the english language… Arabic used to be the lingua franca when we were the super power….u really think that bcos we are no longer a super power that we have to now give preference to understanding the Quran thru english….
It seems to me that when Sameers research showed him that islam has a different take on the world from his secular nation…he lost faith bcos islam didn’t cater to his world view….. It’s like a Buddhist or Hindu expecting islam to conform to their world view and critiquing it for not
Here we go again. The same old tired excuse of translation and English. This is the excuse that blind followers of Islam usually bring out when they have lost the argument. It’s the translation, stupid!!
Erm, no it isn’t. There is nothing wrong with the English translation. There are several English translations on corpus quran. Are they all wrong? Do not be so silly. Just because you find it uncomfortable that the ridiculous, and quite frankly, absurd verses in the quran are now online and being ready by English speaking Westerners, does not make them wrong. Get over it. The quran is no longer the staple diet of Arabic speaking Muslims. Everyone can now read it and critique it. They can make up their own minds. And the growing view is – it’s a joke.
“Out of context” I know (Jihad warfare) but I will quote this quranic verse anyway. Seems apt 🙂
But perhaps you hate a thing and it is good for you; and perhaps you love a thing and it is bad for you. And Allah Knows, while you know not – Quran 2:216
Lol……kill 1 person and u are a murderer, kill 10 people u are a monster, kill a million Iraqis and u are the beacon of the civilized world..
In the “City of God,” St. Augustine tells the story of a pirate captured by Alexander the Great. The Emperor angrily demanded of him, “How dare you terrorize the seas?” To which the pirate replied, “How dare you terrorize the whole world? Because I do it with a small boat, I am called a pirate and a thief. You, with a great navy, terrorize the world and are called an emperor.” St. Augustine thought the pirate’s answer was “elegant and excellent.”
@H
You mentioned that Muslims love the Prophet more than their own mothers.
Do you love the Prophet more than you love yourself?
BTW I’d be willing to take this convo ( not menses, Islam in general) offline via text or phone if you are.
To love pbuh more than oneself is one of the highest forms of Iman, something every Muslim should strive to reach.. Theres a hadith about this from Umar…
The best test for this is how u perform when u are faced with a command of pbuh which goes against your desires or worldly benefits….. It’s easy to just claim one loves pbuh more than oneself
Ive no doubt that we both don’t live in the same country….if you like leave me an email address here and I’ll reach you at it to try and respond to your queries
@H
Actually loving the Prophet more than yourself is obligatory. If you do not love him more than yourself you are sinful. When Umar told the Prophet he loved himself more the Prophet corrected him on the spot. The scholars of About Sunnah, including ibn Taymiyah mention that this is obligatory.
I totally understand why you and all other Muslims struggle with this. The companions, who were with him, struggled with this and none of us have ever even met him.
Please answer this and try to look at the issue objectively. Doesn’t this go against humanity nature?
By the way Muslims love God more than pbuh…..
I know it’s obligatory to love pbuh more than oneself…….
But if someone has trouble reaching that goal do they become a Kaafir?? Find me a scholar that says it’s a nullifier of islam….
There are people who sacrifice their lives for islam so pls don’t assume it’s impossible…. There are people who give up millions out of fear of keeping money that is haram which to me is proof of their love
It is obligatory to tell the truth… So does a Muslim who lies become a Kaafir?
It is obligatorynot to steal….does a Muslim who steals become a Kaafir?
How many times do I have to explain that there is only one unforgivable sin in islam
There are people who give up their lives to save their children, people who would do anything for their lovers……..
I understand u struggle with this concept…. So what if u couldn’t love pbuh…..u probably had poor knowledge of the seerah of pbuh…… Obviously it’s impossible to love someone u didnt really know anything about…..Maybe u should have spent some time studying his seerah…. Awlaki has quite a good series on the seerah of pbuh
@H
Why do you keep saying “Muslims this and Muslims that?” You are aware the most of the ppl commenting, including myself, were practicing Muslims who understand Islam and made the conscious decision to leave. I don’t “struggle with the concept” as you say of loving Muhammad more than yourself, In fact at a time in life I truly believed that I did love him that much. Now that I’m liberated from Islam and I’m able to look at things objectively I see that that requirement doesn’t make much sense.
Where did I ever say someone would be a kafir if they don’t love Muhammad more than themselves? I clearly said that they are sinful. I also never said it wasn’t possible. I said it goes against human nature to love anyone more than yourself (aside from family maybe), especially someone who’ve never met. Then you compare telling the truth which make no sense. Everyone has the ability to do this, they just fall short at times. Loving Muhammad more than yourself however is something a large number of people which simply never achieve.
BTW You should never watch any Awlaki vids. The man was a terrorist. You are aware of this, right?
The intention of talking about lying is to show that few Muslims will get thru life without lying… And that falling short in certain obligatory rulings doesn’t lead to kufr….. I agree large groups of Muslims may not achieve this but then I’m sure large groups of Muslims won’t reach jannah firdaus (the highest level of paradise)
To me the fact that u admitted u truly believed that at one point of time in your life you could love pbuh more than yourself is proof it is possible..
Unfortunately u have now changed your operating system and the new software deems it impossible….. U call your new operating system objective…. But that’s your opinion… to me u being a former atheist makes it subjective…u have to justify to yourself either consciously or subconciously that u have made the right choice and so u will clutch at straws to prove your point and I have no doubt U BELIEVE it is objective
You saying it is possible to love family more than yourself contradicts your own argument that it goes against human nature… To me pbuh is the man God loves and chose to bring me and my family guidance…..pbuh is who will intercede for me and my family on judgement day…everyday my family and I praise and ask God to send blessings and peace to pbuh in out 5 daily prayers…..
To a believer loving pbuh more than oneself is in our own interest…..so why I don’t think it contradicts human nature….our salvation is linked to it…
Well if you don’t like awlaki them I’ve listened to yasir Qadhis full one as well…
No point arguing about Awlaki….it’s again subjective..one man’s terrorist may be another man’s freedom fighter….
I meant it’s in our own self interest so that’s why I don’t think it goes against human nature
H – You say its obligatory for Muslims not to lie. False. Islam has the concept of taqiyaa. Lying IS allowed
You say its obligatory for Muslims not to steal. False. Islam allows stealing from people houses (It does not matter if nobody is living in the house at the time, it is STILL stealing).
There is no blame upon you for entering houses not inhabited in which there is convenience for you – Quran 24:29
Taqiyaa is really a Shia thing..
The verse u mentioned is for a certain context and doesn’t talk of stealing….the house doesn’t become yours…
This is what sunnies like me believe
https://islamqa.info/en/178975
@H
Firdt of allI, never said it was impossible and I never said I was an Atheist.
Back to the pollination thing… If Muhammad doesn’t speak from his desires and it’s all revealation as stated in the Quran, then what was he speaking from when he gave the pollination recommendation? Since you can’t give me a principle on how to decide if a matter is Deen or dunya related I’ll ask you about some specific things individually. Sleeping on your right side, eating dates, drinking camel urine dunya related or not?
I agree u didn’t say it was impossible….
I meant ure a former Muslim…… Are u an atheist now then if u don’t mind my asking?
In surah Abasas story of the blind man and elsewhere in the Quran God corrects pbuh…. I thought that an important point to mention….
The verse u mentioned in surah najm says pbuh doesn’t speak from his own inclination (or desire)
I don’t see the words ‘at all’ in that surah….are u implying that whenever pbuh spoke it was revelation….. That he never had a conversation that was not revelation?… I think the pollination hadith is quite clear in what he says…..he obviously states when he spoke of pollination it wasn’t revelation and the avoidance of sex during breastfeeding was also not revelation but something he says he observed from the Romans, persians
sleeping on the right side, eating dates, hijama, camel urine are not mentioned in Quran though Mariam did have dates after childbirth in surah maryam …. not sure if it’s revelation from God or just pbuh being a good leader to his people and advising them thru life experience so that his ppl could do the best with what they had at the time…whos to say they don’t have medical benefits… We know dates do and even if the only benefit was that of a placebo such as hijama that’s still better than no treatment at all… Though there are claims that hijama too brings about tangible results
Camel urine is the most controversial in the list …Hindus use cow urine in ayurvedic medicine….modern medicine has a medication called Premarin which uses horse urine (obviously not in the pure form) as treatment in perimenopaudal problems, osteoporosis, breast cancer, prostate cancer etc….so I don’t know if it’s revelation but maybe it’s also not as crazy as it at seems at first gance.. There are Muslim sites which give medical benefits of camel urine but I haven’t given links for obvious reasons iof bias
Maybe one principle is to take only the authentic hadith that expand on what the Quran teaches
So for example camel urine has no mention in the Quran so why associate that with the religion…. Muslims can choose to believe that was simply for a time when they had little else in terms of viable medication to choose from…
Personally I don’t mind believing in all authentic hadith …im just saying there are other views of how to interpret such scenarios without having to leave the fold of islam…. I mean take Shabbir Ally for instance
Shabbir Ally even rejects some hadith in bukhary, muslim saying the rules applied were not stringent enough……saying that in our modern time we should exclude hadith that are false bcos they seem to contradict Quranic teachings and may infact be fabricated hadith that managed to slip through inspite of the checks placed at the time to weed off fabricated hadith…..
Pls note that Shabbir Ally doesn’t reject all hadith
My point is that giving the Prophet the room to make these “dunya” mistakes gives him an incredible convenience. You do realize this, right?
I guess it’s how u look at it… maybe it’s a way to ensure Muslims dont mistakenly give him divine attributes….. One check on that is pbuh forbade images of himself lest ppl deify him….
I think there are some extreme sufi Muslim groups that give him attributes which should be reserved only for God….
Maybe the pollination hadith etc can help refute such views
Is this really an issue that caused u to abandon the belief in one God?…. To me all this is just secondary academic differences…..interesting to discuss…… Would never leave the faith bcos of such subjective issues
Also I don’t know what hadith u are calling a verified Dunya mistake……
On the other hand isn’t it thought provoking that the so called scientific issues in the Quran can be explained away bcos they are kind of vague abdomen to interpretation but that the so called Dunya mistakes by pbuh u may have found are probably clear and glaringly obvious??
For ex the Quran I think talks of the sun having an orbit…..to the ppl of pbuh’s time that made sense bcos they daw the sun move….but funnily enough even in our time we can explain it as the orbit of the sun in the milky-way galaxy……sure it takes ages to complete an orbit but to God that time is insignificant…… Amazing how when the Quran asks us to ponder over these signs it could speak to Ppl 1400 years ago and ppl today as well in ways both could relate to
But in the pollination hadith it’s glaringly obvious pbuh made a mistake…..I mean he himself sort of admits so…..
Also if it was such a blasphemous idea why did the Sahaba record it so openly….. And how come scholars who have come across it sin not apostates in droves?
Lol…well here’s what we know about Abdullah bin Abu Sarh…..the companion who died a muslim
https://islamqa.info/en/168773
https://islamqa.info/en/217153
For the same reason scholars have read the story of Abdullah bin abi sarh and haven’t apostated. Not to mention, when a religion kills apostates it often wiser to just go through the motions instead of leaving.
As for my religion after leaving Islam, I don’t believe in religion at all anymore. I don’t necessarily consider myself an Athiest at this point, I’m just not into labels as I’m just researching. It’s Crystal clear that it’s all man-made. In the information era we live in you’ll definitely see this becoming a growing trend. Callers can no longer just lie to ppl about these historical and scientific claims that have “guided” ppl like myself to Islam in the first place. Islam broke my heart bro! I wish I were true. I’ve invested a lot of time in that religion.
Travelled the world, learned a foreign language, the whole nine. Paradise seems beautiful. But I can’t lie to myself for Never Never Land.
Lol…well here’s what we know about Abdullah bin Abu Sarh…..the companion who died a muslim
https://islamqa.info/en/168773
https://islamqa.info/en/217153
Infact he became a good Muslim after the incident and had quite a beautiful death most Muslims only dream about
Al-Baghawi narrated in Mu‘jam as-Sahaabah (4/24, 250), with his isnaad going back to Yazeed ibn Abi Habeeb who said: When ‘Abdullah ibn Sa‘d ibn Abi Sarh was dying: when he was in ar-Ramlah, where he had fled from turmoil, he kept saying to them all night: Has morning come? And they would say: No. Then when morning came, he said: I feel the coolness of the morning, go and look, then he said: O Allah, make my final deed Fajr prayer. So he did wudoo’, then prayed. In the first rak‘ah he recited al-Fatihah and al-‘Aadiyaat (surah 100), and in the second rak‘ah he recited al-Faatihah and another surah. Then he said the tasleem to his right, and he went to say the tasleem to his left, but Allah, may He be glorified and exalted, took his soul
all i can say is as much as Paradise is a beautiful place…. dont forget about hell…. so dont assume things are crystal clear after just coming across one side of the story as you have with Abdullah bin Abi Sharh…..pls read the links provided from islamqa
Remember if u became a muslim bcos monotheism made sense to u… then according to jewish laws .. muslims fulfill the 7 categories to enter paradise….and christanity obviously took a different course with the trinity after Greeko-Roman thoughts were infused into it…..look to Rabbis such as RabbiTovia Singer on youtube if u are skeptical…
not sure how long ill be allowed here so if i cant respond create an email adress which you can then leave here so i can respond to genuine queries
Mohammad was delusional. He received no revelations. Its all just hokus pokus. He just made up verses to suit his sadistic lifestyle. He wanted to marry more women, he gave himself permission. He wanted better treatment for orphan minders (guess what, Mo was an orphan). Mo wanted sex slaves, so he gave himself permission. Mo wanted to massacre non-believers, and yes, he gave himself permission.
And the quran is full of mistakes other than the sun orbiting the earth. He said the mountains were thrown onto Earth – wrong, they are formed through the Earth moving. He said mountains prevent earthquakes – wrong, they do not prevent them. The earth is flat, etc.
It does amaze me H. You are so desperate to believe in this sham you will come up with any feeble excuse you can to convince yourself this violent fairy tale is actually true. What a waste of time and life.
Reforming Islam, ive given up with u….its obvious with u i wont have an impact ….so if you genuinely want answers to those youll have to look elsewhere to clear up your misconceptions bcos i may not even read your future messages
@H
You can’t be serious. Don’t you know Abdullah bin abi sarh only came back to Islam to avoid having his head chopped off? Muhammad literally had a bit list with his name on it but Uthmaan saved his life. Muhammad was even bigger after acctepting abdullahs place to the point that he asked the companions why they didn’t take a hint a kill him when they had the chance. Look at the story objectively NOT a scholar’s explanation. Read the actual hadiths on this story bro.
Also, doesn’t the fact that apostates are killed in Islam say enough? What is Islam afraid of if it’s the truth no apostate could harm the religion. Think about it.
If the Muslim ruler came looking for me now (to kill me) because I apostated I’d “accept Islam” again and fight with alongside the Muslims just like Abdullah did. It was either did on the spot or possibly die in battle.
you are missing the point……pbuh would have rather executed him but the fact that he repented and returned to islam meant pbuhs hands were tied and God willed something else. You have to think of apostasy like treason….. which some secular countries may apply to people disloyal to the state….
people can reject islam and live a peaceful life bcos it is not the duty of the state to look into a persons home and what goes on in there which is far more a respect of privacy than in the modern day west.. ibn Sharh didnt just reject islam, he went on to publicise his leaving islam and even create propaganda and mischief in the land…
there is a world of a difference between someone who decides islam isnt for him and someone who does what Sameer does….but Sameer desnt live in an islamic state and the laws there allow him to malign islam however much he wants so hes ok…… if a muslim were to go to the US or UK and malign democracy or exercise freedom of speech in other matters the west prides itself on hed be locked up and who knows what else.. maybe even tortured endlessly in guantanamo bay….there was even a guy who after protesting the denmark cartoons in UK was locked up for 4 years charged with inciting murder for just publicising his view on what islam said about it…. So lets not pretend the West is some beacon of human rights that we muslims need to listen to…… the double standards really are pathetic….
funny how some americans can call for the death penalty for treason such as they did with bradley manning and they point fingers at islam …. Democracy is hypocrisy
The very fact in an islamic state one can repent and recant means even when caught there is a chance of subverting the punishment…. All ibn Sharh had to do after re embracing islam was go to a land where pbuh had no jurisdiction and live an obscure life minding his own business as a non muslim had he so chosen.. Instead the sources show he went on to live the life of a good muslim and came to quite an incredible end after fajar salah…which indicates to me genuine repentance and a return to islam
why are you being selective and cherry picking our sources by accepting some of what the sources say and not looking at the rest which sheds further light on the story….
if you were in an islamic state which doesnt seem to exist today and minded your own business…then the state would be oblivious of what u do….theres a story i remember where the caliph Umar happened to hear someone drunk or drinking in their house and when he tried to reprimand him..the person in question rightly reminded him that the caliph had no jursidiction in his private home… especially since it was his private sin
Shabir Ally may infact have a more flexible view that even the one i shared…….
I call bullshit. I can malign democracy all I want and nobody will lock me up. I can say FUCK CAPITALISM, be pro-communism whatever, nobody will lock me up. I can probably even burn flags in many places. This is why liberal democracies are superior to Islamic fascism
well if you were pro communism in the US during the cold war with the Soviet Union…it would have been a different story probably… Today the war is with islam…..hence my examples above
lets not forget what the US did to the japanese US nationals some of whom were born in the US and yet locked up in pretty much concentration camps after pearl harbor
also i like how u said PROBABLY burn flags in MANY places……i guess freedom is restricted then….
Canada has no laws prohibiting flag desecration. Acts of this nature are forms of expression protected by the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
The United States Supreme Court in Texas v. Johnson, 491 U.S. 397 (1989), and reaffirmed in U.S. v. Eichman, 496 U.S. 310 (1990), has ruled that due to the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, it is unconstitutional for a government (whether federal, state, or municipality) to prohibit the desecration of a flag, due to its status as “symbolic speech.”
wonder what would happen if muslims in those countries took them up on that offer….. i agree canada is better than some other western countries like the US in their treatment of muslims
anyway not sure if its the same all over the secular west
jewish laws of Halakha are in most cases far more extreme than islamic laws of shariah…..what goes on in israel is on par with if not worse with what is claimed to be done by muslims….
imagine if someone said jewish laws are jewish facisim in some of these countries….. lol…..i mean in france its even illegal to deny the holocaust…..
I think its stupid to make it illegal to deny the holocaust. it should be fair
well thats man made laws for you…… the majority decide whats fair……..morality is determined by the majority….al jazeera brought my attention to that fact after the charlie hebdo attacks
funny thing is that if the majority of citizens of the UK and US were against the iraqi invasion as is widely claimed………why did their governments still go ahead with the invasion….. another example of democrazy is hypocrisy…. More like a plutocracy is what thinkers like Noam Chomsky call it
Maybe if there was less hypocrisy in secular nations muslims would actually take u guys seriously….instead they support puppet dictators …..and even existing democracies in nations are subverted such as in guatamala, ecuador, nicaragua, iran, iraq, egypt. gaza. algeria etc….. if you dont elect the governments us mighty secular nations want u to then well overthrow them and put in people we like…Might makes right after all
Check out the confessions of an economic hitman to see the extent of what they did in south America let alone the middle east
Islamic law is no better. Its actually worse because its stuck with anchors to the 7th century. The same issues and dilemmas we have to solve, you have to solve as well. Don’t forget Germany and France did not support the Iraq war. So don’t try to paint the world as black and white. It’s not.
It makes me cringe to hear that treason rap. How on Earth is leaving a religion and even speaking out against it treason? Under that logic, all of the Christians who leave Christianity for Islam are committing treason as well. So Siraj Wuhan,Daud Adib and other ppl like them should be killed, right? Not only did they leave Christianity, They have tons of material speaking out against it. Cut the double standards bro. And you are sooo off with the Abdullah bin abi sarh reasoning that I don’t even know what else to say about it.
Sameer….lol france has its own list of crimes in africa…… the EU with germany as the driving force has its own list of crimes…….the crimes of the secular world far outweigh anything muslims can muster today……. its so lopsided its even a joke to even compare the crimes
Finding Gog…. lol….well its good you cant respond to ibn Sharh ……u just cant be OBJECTIVE ……its always easier to preach than practice….
The people u mentioned dont live in a theocracy but a democracy…….do i have to explain to u how your own secular countries work…
Theocracies work different to Democracies…..Christian theocracies were downright evil towards jews and the record with science is questionable too which is why Secularism had to take over….Jews infact flourished in the muslim khilafah and if you dont belive me go listen to Rabbi Tovia Singer i mentioned earlier…The muslim world lost its caliphate in WW1 against its will and was carved up into pieces…
its funny how dispicably secular nations treat illegal immigrants…they call them aliens even and they are treated as second class citizens….So please you cut the double standards and your countries should sort out their own issues first before they go forcing down democracy down our throats and killing millions of us in the process….. frankly i find the double standards disgusting
Sameer also its unfair to criticise islamic law when today there is not a single country that is allowed to implement Shariah law in its entirety….i mean the social, political, economic, welfare etc aspects of the shariah….. so u cant criticise something u have not seen in your lifetime
All we have is saudi arabia which is a nation state that looks after saudi citizens and implements parts of the criminal code of the shariah only…..its easy to call in barbaric when people think islamic law is only criminal law
Finding Gog….go find some of the silly reasons secular countries have executed people for treason……. i mean just spying for another country gets some people killed…. let alone subverting people from within the state seeking to destroy it as is the ideological warfare that some apostates wage publicly….
Why cant the apostates just leave the religion and mind their own business…..or leave the religion and leave the state as well instead of trying to corrupt its citizens and maybe even help the states enemies through spouting enemy propaganda such as we see with some democrazies today
@H
You truly are amazing. You really need to open your mind, you’d feel better.
Answer this simple question… Do these formerly Christian callers who’ve left Christianity to promote Islam and debunk Christianity deserve to be killed?
haha…..u wish your mind was as open as mine………u could do with fewer double standards….
the US is not a christian country…its secular whether they like that or not…..ao muslims have as much right to be there and preach as christians do…
However if you ask about the vatican…i agree they have the right to expect former christians who convert to islam and preach it to leave the state or risk death….infact the vatican wouldnt dream of allowing a mosque anyway
The US is in our lands corrupting people….so obviously we have every right to be there and corrupt people as they see it by making them muslims…… or do ur double standards extend to this as well
also in a secular country anyone can convert to anything they want…………they can become a satanist or believe we are all descended from lizard aliens for all the state cares
in secular countries the religion is democracy……. secular countries like the US and UK are intolerant of muslims preaching against democracy……we all know what happened to Awlaki and others who are now roting in jail…. its ok to speak out against christanity or whatever else u want…just so long as u vote in our democratic elections and give your allegiance to the state…
Reminds me of the Pagan Roman Empire..believe whatever you want in your private space but make sure you partake in our national religion as well which the christians refused to do and were thus persecuted
So its not like these secular democracies allow freedom to preach whatever u want either
Harun, stop with the lies and misrepresentations. Awlaki called for attacks against America on his blog, praised the Fort Hood shooter, and spoke to Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab (the underwear bomber). He was an enemy of the state. He didn’t just speak against democracy, he was involved in terrorist attacks.
ok fine ignore Awlaki then……wasnt keeping up with what he did
Look, just admit it brother. Secular liberalism is superior to islamic fascism. There is no (or very little) freedom of speech and religion under Islam. Not even close to what you will find in secular liberal democracies. This is why our western countries are thriving. Because this is exactly the recipe for a happy healthy productive society.
i admit u guys are thriving today…….. and i guess bombing us to the stone age will keep u guys thriving in the short term future ……
i admit there is restricted freedom of speech and religion for non muslims in islam….. but muslims too suffer from restriction of freedom of speech and religion in the secular west…and muslims have to compromise or risk being ostracised and demonised… you cant say the west has unfettered freedom of speech and religion….
If this is how you felt when you were a muslim….its no surprise u left islam….ur heart belongs elsewhere
Not all Muslim countries are bombed. Not all Western countries supported the Iraq war. The world is not black and white. Are you telling me Saudi is the way it is because of the west? Fess up, the Islamic world view puts severe limitations on the success of a nation. You have to admit there is a problem before moving forward.
this is not 2001……its not just iraq anymore…..its all over the middle east and north africa…..
forget nations…islam is a religion for empires……look at the ottomon empire or the abbasid empire not the saudi state run by the family of Saud for the benefit of only Saudis….. i mean you just have to know who Saudis closest international allies are to see the root of the problem
Saudi is not the goal of the islamic world.. our goals are models of the past…. all the muslim world needs right now is to be left alone without the destruction brought upon it by the secular world….. just as china found its way so will we God willing….
here are the stats of the US alone…NOT including the bombs of their allies…Galloway says in obamas 8 years its been a bomb every 20 minutes in the muslim world…..i found the stats for 2015 and 2016 and they fit
http://reason.com/blog/2017/01/05/the-us-dropped-more-than-26000-bombs-las
http://blogs.cfr.org/zenko/2016/01/07/how-many-bombs-did-the-united-states-drop-in-2015/
when september 11 happened grief striken ppl called for the muslim world to be bombed….the kaba even bcos of 3000 deaths i think…..imagine the violence and anger this is creating…. do u really think the people here in these nations are less human and deserve this
in 2016 three bombs every hour 24 hours a day http://www.stopwar.org.uk/index.php/news-comment/2350-america-dropped-26-171-bombs-in-2016-what-a-bloody-end-to-obama-s-reign
That’s sad. Have you heard of Democracy Now? I’m actually a donor to them for many months now. They are against war.
yes i have….. but its in the name of democracy, and its slogans of human rights and freedom that these bombs are being dropped……. lets not have double standards…..
No its not, its in the name of imperialism. Not everyone necessarily agrees with the government decisions and thats why there were protests for the Iraq war even in America. Try to understand that. Democracy is not perfect but its as good as we can get.
its like me telling you i like Shabbir Ally…… and hes against terrorism…… we know what your response would be……the terrorists do it in the name of islam
imperialism really? so why when they invade and bomb these countries do they say it is to establish democracies and infact they do try to establish democracies …..look what they did in iraq and what they are trying to do elsewhere…they are infct trying to install democracies
Seems our roles are now reversed….u are now the apologist…..saying not in my name lol….and that democracy is against terrorism
maybe if they said we are trying to establish colonies in the middle east you would have a leg to stand on when u call it imperialism…….. i borrowed that phrase leg to stand on from one of your fans lol
I can understand why Abdullah stopped responding to H ‘s arguments!
H started talking out of context. His arguments didn’t help to prove that the facts in Qur’an about menstruation are scientific.sorry if I am offending H.
All believers are so scared to open up during a discussion, forget about accepting facts.and like Abdullah said if religion is blind faith then what’s the point of choosing one over the other?